Curse

Elvarg · Nov 27, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

With the introduction of behavior-controllable heroes, and movement orders for both heroes and henchmen, ANet has significantly improved the ability of players to control their NPC assistants. But there is still a lot of room for improvement. While heroes are indeed wonderfully customizable, all their customization is hero-specific, rather than party specific. Since "one never fights alone", the biggest gap between henchmen/heroes and real people is that the former still don't have a clue how to fight in a team. And while the movement flags offer limited help, they are grossly inadequate for proper hero movement and positional control. In the heat of battle, it is simply impossible to micromanage each hero individually, and moving the party as a whole does not help except when your idea is to drop everything and flee. It is the relative position of party members to one another that matters.

Many other games have some kind of NPC formation orders. My favorite was Sacrifice, which, while ultimately was an RPG and not a strategy game (just like GW) had a truly wonderful formation system. You could order your minions to move, attack, and retreat in a particular shape, which often shaped the outcome of battle -- or at least the survival rate of your troops. While GW does not as heavily focus on strategy elements, I still think we could greatly benefit from a simple, easy to use, basic formation system for your heroes and henchmen.

The idea is as follows: on you radar map there are already some buttons which control movements. Add another button to the left, which will control the team formation. See the screenshot below (note: screenshot for reference only, please don't discuss my lousiness in Photoshop):

The visible icon on the radar is the currently active formation. When you click on the button, a drop-down menu pops, and you can choose another formation. Once you click on a formation from a drop-down list, it becomes the active formation and the new icon replaces the current one in the formation button.

What do the icons mean? Each icon corresponds to a particular formation type, ordered as displayed on the screenshot bottom, from left to right.

First icon: Automatic Formation. Heroes and henches decide on themselves what formation to follow, if any (pretty much what we have right now). In fact, it should be exactly what we have now, so we don't have people complaining that they don't like formations -- they could just completely turn them off by setting the Automatic option.
Second icon: Wall Formation. Heroes and henches will form a horizontal wall in the direction of the run. Warriors are in the center, casters are in the middle sides, and rangers are on the far flanks.

This formation is useful when you want to swipe an entire area at once, ensuring to catch all aggro (sometimes you want to do that); it will also tend to evenly spread enemy damage on whole group rather than just one person, in case you want that. It is also useful when you want to shield a VIP mission target, who can run behind the wall, and enemies would find it difficult to run around the wall to hit the target.
Third icon: Line Formation. Heroes and henches will form a vertical line in the direction of the run. During an offense, fighters should be in front, followed by casters, followed by rangers. The order is reversed during retreat, with warriors behind absorbing damage, and weak targets running in front.

This formation is useful when attacking unidirectionally and wanting the tank to absorb as much damage as possible; it is also useful when you are trying to make a slip-through run, but in case it botches, you don't want the whole group to be in one spot to be hit with an AoE.
Fourth icon: Forward Wing Formation. This is a combination of the Wall and Line formations. Heroes and henches proceed in a /\ shape in the direction of the run. Warriors are at the wing tip, casters in the middle, and rangers at the rear flanks. The weakest targets (such as monks) may actually be inside the V-shape itself.

This formation is useful during assaults. It allows a strong center, reinforced by spellcasters and rangers from the sides. It offers a combined area-control due to its breadth, and weak-target protection due to its shape. It is strongly unreccomended to retreat using this formation, due to exposure of weak targets to the enemy.
Fifth icon: Backward Wing. The opposite of Forward wing, henches and heroes attack in a \/ shape in the direction of the run. During attack, warriors are on the forward flanks, rangers in the middle, and healers at the rear point. During retreat, the positions inverse, and warriors occupy the rear point with weak targets in the forward flanks or inside the shape.

This formation is useful when required to attack a spread target, or when needing to engage two mobs at once in slightly different direction (ensuring each mob focuses on each strong target at the forward flank). This position is also useful during retreat, as the warriors will protect weak targets from attack, and the shape would make it difficult to outrun and attack the weak targets.
Sixth icon: Blob Formation. Heroes and henches group and hang together as close as possible. At all times, strong targets form the border of the blob, and weak targets are in the middle.

This formation is useful when engaging overwhelming amounts of relatively weak foes (especially melee or ranged attacks which can be bodyblocked), allowing warriors to protect weak targets inside. It is also useful during sneak situations, such as a slip-through run, where you need minimum aggro range, or when you see a 2nd mob coming up close to your fight, which you have no intention of drawing. The downside of this formation is its high vulnerability to AoE spells, group hexes, chains, and slowdown spells.
Seventh icon: Circle Formation. Heroes and henches form a circle, usually about the size of the aggro circle, but varying in size as necessary. During combat, warriors may have to break this formation in order to engage targets in melee, but casters should still try and keep the formation.

This formation is useful when you need to encircle the target, making escape harder. It is also useful when you need to minimize AoE damage. It allows omnidirectional spell and range attacks, with enemies having to deal with multiple sources of damage at once. The downside is the vulnerability of individual targets, as weak targets are not protected by a strong neighbor.

How strictly are the formations followed? This depends:

When no enemies are present and the terrain allows it, formations are followed strictly.
In tight spaces, formations may be squashed if everyone can't fit on the terrain when properly following formation.
In battle, warriors and other melee fighters may require to break formation to engage target. Ranged fighters, however, will try to maintain formation while shooting or casting spells.
Some leeway is allowed to break formation in order to avoid damage, such as running away from an attacker or out of an AoE. However, the formation should still be a guideline, and after running away for some distance the hero or hench should return to the intended place. This will also help fixing the problem of heroes and henches running loose, far away from the battlefield, or into a mob you didn't intend to aggro.
The formation membership may switch according to the situation. For example, when attacking in a Forward Wing, the tanks would be in front center, while rangers and casters would be in the rear flanks. When fleeing, however, the formation could change so the warriors are behind and taking hits, while protecting the backs of weaker targets.

Who can use the icon? Heroes and henchmen obey formation orders just like they obey flag movement orders. Heroes follow the formation orders of their master. Henchmen obey the party leader. Note: if the hero master set his formation status to "automatic", while the party leader set a specific formation, heroes would obey the party leader until the master overrides them with another formation order. This will allow masters to retain control of their heroes, while also allowing masters to let the party leader control a larger NPC pool for a single formation, if such is beneficial to the party.

In case the above paragraph was confusing...

Party Leader sets Automatic, Hero Master sets Automatic = Heroes follow Automatic, Henches follow Automatic
Party Leader sets Automatic, Hero Master sets Line = Heroes follow Line, Henches follow Automatic
Party leader sets Line, Hero Master sets Automatic = Heroes follow Line, Henches follow Line
Party Leader sets Line, Hero Master sets Circle = Heroes follow Circle, Henches follow Line

Do these formations conflict with movement orders? If you order your whole group to move, then no, because it will just move along in the formation you set. However, if you order a particular hero to move somewhere, then the movement order overrides the formation order, and the hero will move and stay at the target spot until the movement order is cancelled, at which point it will return back to its formation.

Does this proposal affect any balance issues? It shouldn't. It does not make heroes or henches more powerful, it just allows better control over them. Obviously, in a lot of situations this will make a very big difference in battle. But one needs to remember that heroes and henches are only as good as the one who controls them, and incompetent formations are as vulnerable as good ones are beneficial. Furthermore, managing formations, should a player choose to do so, will require some attention diverted from the battlefield, adding a challenge to the leader.

Finally, I believe no type of formations or other AI enhancement can make a hero or hench substitute a real player -- it just helps to close the gap in the more annoying situations, where henches and heroes behave stupidly if not properly controlled.

I would welcome to hear your ideas and suggestions. Please be as informative as possible -- I accept all kinds of comments as long as they are constructive. This suggestion thread may be modified as I read your comments.

Rurik Jangeer · Nov 28, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

/soheavilysigneditsnotevenfunnyhowmuchisupportthisi deaandwantitimplemented

lol. this idea would revolutionize the way PvE works. Not only that, but it would be great fun. I had been thinking that we needed an improved way to control the non-hero henchmen, and this would be just right. I have no suggestions for this idea, I truly think it's fine the way it is. Good job with this one.

CyberMesh0 · Nov 28, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

/signed

Very well thought out, I see potential here.

MithranArkanere · Nov 28, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Remember a game Called Sacrifice?

I LOVE when the main character yells: "Semicircle formation!", "Falange formation", "Guard me!"
And your creatures responds...

I would also add an activable option so they respond with real voices (if you don't like it, you just switch them off at options tag)

gamecube187 · Nov 29, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

/signed

The only problem is that the with the small party size that GW has, it might be a little hard to do some of these formations. But then again, if they worked with all npc's that help you and necro minions....

rabbitXcore · Nov 29, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

/singed

this would be amazing...any of the formations for an MM would do serious damage

Sidra · Nov 29, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

/signed.

Pure genius.

a_ndy · Nov 29, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

/signed

This sounds like a clever idea that would be feasible to implement.

I think something like the Gambit system of FFXII would be a really great thing too, where you could set conditions of your AI players' actions... though maybe that's complicating things a bit much.

ArcaneApostle · Nov 29, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

/signed

When I started playing after my 3 month hiatus, I was surprised by the flag thing. I was then confused as to where the formations were; took me a while to discover that there were none.

They should be in, then I can play GW like Ogre Battle!

Addendum: Perhaps when the party leader designates a formation, a circle/figure can appear on the ground for *human* members of the team designating their position in the formation (only visible to that person) so that one can form and maintain human formations with some degree of accuracy. Then depending on the number of characters that break formation, the hue of the formation-thingamajig could turn more red and/or blinking (like a warning); it would be just as translucent as normal, so as not to interfere with seeing stuff.

To implement this, we might also need that feature spoken of in another thread where players can view the aggro range for all allies on the field.

Lord Of Thee Monks · Nov 29, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

/signed

i would love this idea at first i thougth it was real.
but i really need to be able to do that.If i could make my heros go into formations i would make it a lot father in gw on my own

but your idea it awsome man! i love it!!!!

Spader · Nov 29, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

I read about half that and sounds nice. The only problem that others would have is if got into pvp.

it's good either way.
/signed

Not A Fifty Five · Nov 29, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rurik Jangeer

/soheavilysigneditsnotevenfunnyhowmuchisupportthisi deaandwantitimplemented

lol. this idea would revolutionize the way PvE works. Not only that, but it would be great fun. I had been thinking that we needed an improved way to control the non-hero henchmen, and this would be just right. I have no suggestions for this idea, I truly think it's fine the way it is. Good job with this one.

/signedlikeabovelol

Lethorn Maeran · Nov 29, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

/signed
I like the way you think...hehe

jihad crusader · Nov 29, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

This looks like a very good idea yet there's a downside, it would actually kill the idea of playing together (If I want to play alone there are other games).

This would clearly overpower heroes compared to human teams (which is pretty much already the case right now, would only be worse).

Let's face it, what team of human players would act with the same coordination? None, so what would be the point of playing together?

Please Anet, dont include such a concept into your Guild wars

Etrik · Nov 29, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Signed. I bow to you, Elvarg.

bhavv · Nov 29, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

/signed

And can we get a stand your ground comand to make each hero stand exactly where you want and not move untill they die (FTW in relic maps in HA).

plzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzpl zplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzplz

[KotL]Mjolnir · Nov 29, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Remember a game Called Sacrifice?

I LOVE when the main character yells: "Semicircle formation!", "Falange formation", "Guard me!"
And your creatures responds...

I would also add an activable option so they respond with real voices (if you don't like it, you just switch them off at options tag)

Sacrifice was such I good game its a shame everything Shiny has made ever since is tripe. As for the OP's idea add a Global Combat Mode button and I'm sold.

countesscorpula · Dec 01, 2006, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Wow, i posted this same idea 18 days ago. Funny that. Granted mine was more simplistic (i didn't want to ask for too much), nor did it come with fancy pictures, but the same basic idea. Heck, almost the same title.

That being said...

/signed (still)

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s... nch+formation

pjfresh · Mar 01, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

/signed 1000%

For the most part, I'm fine with henchmen. It's just against those Elemenatlist and certain Ritualist bosses in Factions and Nightfall where they all stayed bunched up and get wiped in one or two AoE spells... (Flame Djinn boss anyone? lol) So frustrating. Great idea though.

- pjfresh

Dougal Kronik · Mar 01, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

/signed

Very well thought out and explained.